Login    
   Praise Whistlers Abroad
   Home Page: praisewhistlers.org
    Register FAQ  •  Search    
It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:23 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Jump to:  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:58 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:22 am
Posts: 1192
Location: Rodhope Mountains, Greece
Today is January 6 and it is the Feast of Theophany and in Greece this is a huge festival day. All over Greece this the day when bishops and priests go in procession to rivers, lakes, beaches and harbours to bless the waters and cast the evil spirits from them. I realise that not all Christians believe that there are evil spirits but Greek Christians do!

The Bishop prays for the waters and blesses a cross which is thrown into the water. By tradition the local lads jump into the water to retrieve the cross and return it to the bishop. People try to kiss the cross as it returns.

This day is a bit like Christmas and families tend to go back to their village homes to celebrate. Every Greek has a village to which they belong even if they were brought up in a city.

The Theophany water is different from holy water and is thought to have been physically changed. It is taken home and sprinkled in houses and some of this special water will be drunk.



Image
The bishop prays for the waters and blesses the cross


Image
The clerics are on the bridge and the bishop throws the cross on a ribbon. Note there are crowds of several thousands that congregate on both sides of the river.



Image
The holy cross hits the water, the hobgoblins are banished and the waters are blessed.



Image
Here are some lads in the water racing for the cross.



Image
Once the holy cross is found it is passed back to the bishop. Everyone tries to kiss it to recieve a blessing.


Image
Two elderly men collect blessed water. They look like Russians to me.



Image
The bishop and his clerics return to the cathedral in procession. Unlike secular countries like the UK and the USA Greece regards itself as a 'Christian' nation and so the church and state do everything hand in hand. This means that the military and politicians will always be involved when there is a church feast or celebration.



Image
Back at the cathedral the communion bread is given out. Two hands are held out for the bread the bishop offers, a policewoman bows and kisses the bishop's other hand and another policeman is giving me a crafty look!


Image
These urns contain the Theophany water and people come to drink. The children here are being sprinkled with the water. Note that the children have communion bread. Orthodoxy views children from their infancy as important members of the Church. There is never time when the young are not part of God's people.



Image
A quick look in the cathedral after the service which has lasted about 5 hours. Cathedral is short for 'cathedral church' from the Greek 'cathedra' meaning seat (i.e. of the bishop).


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:04 am
Posts: 664
Location: Central Texas
You live in a "target rich" enviroment and I am trying my best not to be envious ... so far it isn't working! ](*,) :laughing:

Very nice series ... both pictures and explanations ... well laid out.

_________________
We are not perfect .... just forgiven!


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:53 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
Wow, everything is so incredibly ornate! Very O.T.

(You forgot to post the photo of the urns.)

Yes, there are most certainly evil spirits, I just don't believe I need Jesus Christ AND something else (such as a yearly blessing by a bishop) to be protected from them.

Kitty

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:12 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:22 am
Posts: 1192
Location: Rodhope Mountains, Greece
KittyR wrote:
Wow, everything is so incredibly ornate! Very O.T.

(You forgot to post the photo of the urns.)

Yes, there are most certainly evil spirits, I just don't believe I need Jesus Christ AND something else (such as a yearly blessing by a bishop) to be protected from them.

Kitty


Sorry I forgot to post the urn picture. It's there now. :thumbsup:

If we were Greeks and had been brought up in the Greek church we would probably be good Orthodox believers. ;)


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 10
Location: Beautiful Central Virginia
Great pictures Adrian; thanks.
Interesting celebration, I wonder how it originated. Sounds almost like Elisha recovering the ax head from the river.

_________________
In His Grip

Rod


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:16 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
Adrian wrote:
If we were Greeks and had been brought up in the Greek church we would probably be good Orthodox believers. ;)

Oh, I don't know. I'm American and have been brought up in the American Church System, yet I no longer am a good American Church System believer. ;)

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:18 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Chicago, IL
Excellent! I just got home from a service at the local Greek Orthodox church, actually. Wonderful experience. There was just enough English for me to almost follow ;) And yes, they had a similar thign with the holy water... gave out bottles of it. I didn't take any, but the whole service really blessed me. I do like the idea behind the water, even if I disagree with their specific theology- it's a tangible reminder of God's cleansing power, and truly potent insofar as we use it as a gateway to the Holy Spirit, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I doubt they see it as a "Jesus Christ and something else" equation... all the power comes from Jesus, all the good power in the world; but we receive that power through His instrument in the world, the Church, and we receive reminders and manifestations of it in the world, through sacraments and blessings for example, because the Creator is evident in creation, as Paul and David declared (and Adrian, would they say that you *need* the Bishop's blessing? I don't know much about orthodox exorcism, but IIRC the Catholics certainly believe that laymen's prayers against demons are truly effective). I like that about the Orthodox church- it's not just a Protestant, Humanist, our-mind-and-God's-mind-thinking-together sort of thing. Our entire body is involved in salvation- indeed all creation groans in anticipation! Very Biblical indeed- sometimes moreso than the Zwinglian, worldless American Protestantism I'm used to- even if many specific Orthodox practices (and the superstition and legalism attached) aren't so much. I didn't take any water like I said, but I certainly felt the Holy Spirit there, and if their theology is a little strange... well, our God is a merciful God, who loves receiving glory more than giving chains :) Good stuff. God bless 'em.

_________________
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." -G.K. Chesterton

Web Page: http://yeruvan.googlepages.com
Blog: http://chiasticsarcast.livejournal.com


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:10 pm
Posts: 105
The whole thing reminds me very much of the Russian Orthodox Church.which has always had a peculiar attraction for me.........did I hear someone say throw him out............like it or not the Orthodox Church has retained some of the mystery richness and beauty of worship that many others have lost sight of................I remember going to a Greek Orthodox service in Oxford.they had a small choir that sang in rich deep harmonies during a Communion service...........we were total strangers and the folk were just kind and warm..when I see Orthodox worship taking place I am somehow reminded of the book of Ezekiel with its mysteries and visions. Do take me seriously on this....when I worked as a prison governor I was known as 'crazy crutt'...my second name being Cruttenden...........an old Kentish name ........... so think carefully before and if you respond. :laughing: :laughing:


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:04 am
Posts: 664
Location: Central Texas
Revles wrote:
The whole thing reminds me very much of the Russian Orthodox Church.which has always had a peculiar attraction for me.........did I hear someone say throw him out............like it or not the Orthodox Church has retained some of the mystery richness and beauty of worship that many others have lost sight of................I remember going to a Greek Orthodox service in Oxford.they had a small choir that sang in rich deep harmonies during a Communion service...........we were total strangers and the folk were just kind and warm..when I see Orthodox worship taking place I am somehow reminded of the book of Ezekiel with its mysteries and visions. Do take me seriously on this....when I worked as a prison governor I was known as 'crazy crutt'...my second name being Cruttenden...........an old Kentish name ........... so think carefully before and if you respond. :laughing: :laughing:

Les .... I wasn't aware of the "crutt" part ... but I had already pegged you for the "crazy" :laughing:

_________________
We are not perfect .... just forgiven!


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:54 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
TheSpoonMan wrote:
our God is a merciful God, who loves receiving glory more than giving chains

Icons, symbols, traditions, sacraments, ceremonies... all these are fine as reminders of the Kingdom of God. The detestable thing is when faith is placed in these rather than truly in the one of which they speak. At that point, the chains of superstition actually take on the appearance of giving glory to God.


TheSpoonMan wrote:
but we receive that power through His instrument in the world, the Church

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.


TheSpoonMan wrote:
I doubt they see it as a "Jesus Christ and something else" equation.

Oh, I'm quite sure that they don't.

Kitty

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:18 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Chicago, IL
KittyR wrote:
TheSpoonMan wrote:
our God is a merciful God, who loves receiving glory more than giving chains

Icons, symbols, traditions, sacraments, ceremonies... all these are fine as reminders of the Kingdom of God. The detestable thing is when faith is placed in these rather than truly in the one of which they speak. At that point, the chains of superstition actually take on the appearance of giving glory to God.


Yes, I totally agree there.

KittyR wrote:
TheSpoonMan wrote:
but we receive that power through His instrument in the world, the Church

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.


Well, I definately don't agree with the Orthodox/Catholic view of church, even though theirs seems the more ancient and authoritative one... maybe I'm not ready, or mayeb the Church ahs gone wrong from almost the start. Either way, I think they're got osmething right there- but then so do we. On one hand, yaeh, Jesus comes to us individually and we accept Him individually. We see that in our own experiences and also in the calling of the disciples and Paul. If any person comes to faith through Christ, it's the Church's responsibility not to Church-ify them, but to receive them gently intot he fold. This is true even for people who come in without experience in church- such as Paul. But it doens't stop there. Immediately after his very personal conversion experience, Paul went to another Christian and received instruction- we're a community, not a bunch of individuals that happen to possess the same truth. Truth unites us. And not only that: Paul spoke of the "church of the living God, the pillar and support of the Truth", so not only do we all know the Truth, but we support the Truth- ie, represent it and make it manifest in the world (since obviously the Truth itself- Jesus Christ- doens't need a support).

In righteous you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;
And from terror, for it will not come near you.
If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me.
Whoever assails you will fail because of you.
[....]No weapon that is formed against you will prosper;
And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their vindication is from Me, declares the LORD.
(Isaiah 54)

_________________
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." -G.K. Chesterton

Web Page: http://yeruvan.googlepages.com
Blog: http://chiasticsarcast.livejournal.com


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:11 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
Gee, now it would seem you're preaching my message. :D

I certainly hope you don't hear me saying we are all individuals who happen to posses the same truth.

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:20 am
Posts: 639
Location: California
Adrian wrote:
Today is January 6 and it is the Feast of Theophany and in Greece this is a huge festival day. All over Greece this the day when bishops and priests go in procession to rivers, lakes, beaches and harbours to bless the waters and cast the evil spirits from them.
If blessing the water ever catches on world wide, I'm out of a job! (I work in a drinking water treatment plant) :mrgreen:

Wonderful pix, Adrian! And Jim is right, you do live in a target rich environment! I never tire of your and Susan's pictures. It's almost like traveling, but cheaper.

_________________
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
William Butler Yeats


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 10
Location: Beautiful Central Virginia
Quote:
...like it or not the Orthodox Church has retained some of the mystery richness and beauty of worship that many others have lost sight of


I wonder if this is so. I think we may sometimes look at the ceremony and ritual involved in the OT Israelite sacrificial system and want to apply it to the NT church. As the Orthodox Church seems to do. But is that the example of the NT Church we see in Scripture? I don't see a great deal of ceremony there; meetings in homes and community meals, prayer times and fellowship. There are only two sacraments; the Lord's table or communion and baptism.
Communion was usually practiced during the "love feast" or meal everyone enjoyed together, while baptism often took place wherever there was water, without a great deal of ceremony.

The great liturgical practices seem to have come much later. So to say that many others in the Church have lost sight of those things may not be quite accurate, since they weren't originally practiced by the Church to begin with.

Just some thoughts without the desire to step on any toes. :)

_________________
In His Grip

Rod


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:47 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:45 pm
Posts: 1263
GREAT people shots!!!!

_________________
Religion requires, grace enables.
http://realgodseekers.blogspot.com/


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:18 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Chicago, IL
KittyR wrote:
Gee, now it would seem you're preaching my message. :D

I certainly hope you don't hear me saying we are all individuals who happen to posses the same truth.


Cool :) Well, I must admit I don't know exactly waht you're saying, but here's whawt I see in the American church overall- they don't phrase it in taht way, but they say yes, we're the Church of God, BUT thjey don't really think about it that way, even if they say it. I've got to admit, they've got the most important stuff down- a community that buiolds up and encourages one another in teh Lord. But that means things that they dont' always let it mean. They say we're a church, but they don't give the Church the importance that's traditionally ascribed to it. That's understandable ebcause the Church has made a huge mess of what it's been given (the legalism and superstition about sacraments is a great example), but it doens't change the fact that what is, is.

RE:rodfish, Hmm, looking through the Bible I see the laying on of hands being practiced, and the annointing of the sick with oil. I see prayers being compared to incense. I see set formulaic creeds and songs- a liturgy (tho I NEVER see a liturgy prescribed exactly! Which is important). Furthermore, besides Bible (and sometimes contemporary with it), the earliest texts of Christianity, mention all sorts of stuff like that- keeping a flame lit at Jesus' tomb, chants, a specific order of service for communion, that sort of thing. Also, think about the culture back then- if someoen was raised attending a very formal synagogue and temple service (orthe equivalent pagan insittuitons- people back then were IMMERSED in ceremony, whatever religion they were), they're not suddenly gonna switch over to a new way of doing thigns, just becuase they hav a new religion. If I suddenly became converted to some new religion (God forbid!), and became one of tis first founders, I would do church in teh same way I alwayus have- I wouldn't suddenly add incense and sacrifices and what have you. Also, remember that originalyl the christians had two services- they went to synagogue with the Jews, and then they met together to have the love meal and communion. When they were kicked outta the synogogues, they incorporated the synogogue service into the communion service. So some kinda liturgy woulda been there from the start/

But then, I agree that teh modern high churches have blow nthat WAY out of proportion. I mean, clearly the liturgy as it is today evolved over centuries... wasn't with the Early Church... and the nto claim it comes directly form God? I respect tradition but that's a bit mcuh. I think the biggest problem they haev is a lack of corporate worship- at the service I attended, I think there was one song the congregaton sang, in abotu two and a half hours. Church is about our corporate walk with God, and our walk with God is about participation in teh mysteries- that's why GOd ebcame man, instead of just legislatin salvation from His throne (which He could have done). Christianity isn't about the priests and pastors and what not- the priests and pastors and whatnot are about he people, and the people are about Christ, and Christ is about God. And that's just all there is to it.

_________________
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." -G.K. Chesterton

Web Page: http://yeruvan.googlepages.com
Blog: http://chiasticsarcast.livejournal.com


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:09 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
TheSpoonMan wrote:
I've got to admit, they've got the most important stuff down- a community that buiolds up and encourages one another in teh Lord.

I would say that this is the greatest point of difference between you and me. I see something quite different when I look at the American church machine. A community that builds up and encourages one another in the Lord? I see that in the New Testament -- but no, I do not see that in today's church institutions.

As far as exactly what I'm saying, I'm simply disagreeing with your statement that we receive Christ's power through the church.

Kitty

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 10
Location: Beautiful Central Virginia
Quote:
RE:rodfish, Hmm, looking through the Bible I see the laying on of hands being practiced, and the annointing of the sick with oil. I see prayers being compared to incense. I see set formulaic creeds and songs- a liturgy (tho I NEVER see a liturgy prescribed exactly! Which is important). Furthermore, besides Bible (and sometimes contemporary with it), the earliest texts of Christianity, mention all sorts of stuff like that- keeping a flame lit at Jesus' tomb, chants, a specific order of service for communion, that sort of thing. Also, think about the culture back then- if someoen was raised attending a very formal synagogue and temple service (orthe equivalent pagan insittuitons- people back then were IMMERSED in ceremony, whatever religion they were), they're not suddenly gonna switch over to a new way of doing thigns, just becuase they hav a new religion. If I suddenly became converted to some new religion (God forbid!), and became one of tis first founders, I would do church in teh same way I alwayus have- I wouldn't suddenly add incense and sacrifices and what have you. Also, remember that originalyl the christians had two services- they went to synagogue with the Jews, and then they met together to have the love meal and communion. When they were kicked outta the synogogues, they incorporated the synogogue service into the communion service. So some kinda liturgy woulda been there from the start/

But then, I agree that teh modern high churches have blow nthat WAY out of proportion. I mean, clearly the liturgy as it is today evolved over centuries... wasn't with the Early Church... and the nto claim it comes directly form God? I respect tradition but that's a bit mcuh. I think the biggest problem they haev is a lack of corporate worship- at the service I attended, I think there was one song the congregaton sang, in abotu two and a half hours. Church is about our corporate walk with God, and our walk with God is about participation in teh mysteries- that's why GOd ebcame man, instead of just legislatin salvation from His throne (which He could have done). Christianity isn't about the priests and pastors and what not- the priests and pastors and whatnot are about he people, and the people are about Christ, and Christ is about God. And that's just all there is to it.


Spoonman: Please don't get me wrong; I'm not against liturgy or ceremony; I think there are some beautiful practices in different churchs, but I don't think those things are required, nor do I think there are any clear examples in the NT of the Church practicing those things, which indicates to me that they're not essential to experience "the mystery richness and beauty of worship" that revles mentioned in his post.

True, there are references to the laying on of hands and annointing with oil in the NT, but no description of how that is to take place nor any guidelines as to its administration; whether with great pomp or very simply.
As to early texts mentioning some of the things you mentioned; like keeping a flame lit at Jesus tomb, chants and so forth; you may be right that they were carryovers from early believers previous practices; but it doesn't follow that they were pleasing to the Lord. Quite the contrary; when the Jewish Christians tried to get the new Gentile believers to follow the Law and be circumsized, Paul responded very strongly in his letter to the Galatians that those things were not only worthless, but wrong.

It's also true that the very earliest believers (who were almost all Jewish) met in the Temple until they were thrown out, but there isn't any indication that I can see that the early Church (after the time the persecution began in Jerusalem) met in Synagogues. Paul usually went to the Synagogue first when he came to a new city, but that was always to witness to his brethren the Jews and any Gentiles who were there seeking after the Lord. The new believers tended to meet in homes.

The argument that a new believer would naturally incorporate some of his practices into his new found faith doesn't seem to hold true to me. Especially when or if the old faith he or she practiced involved worshiping idols, which would certainly have been the case in that day.
Paul seemed to be pretty strong on laying off the old self and puting on the new.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "our walk with God is about participation in the mysteries." The mysteries that Paul mentions aren't mysteries anymore since they have been revealed in the NT. Our walk with God is incredibly a new life; one where we have been redeemed from death by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. We are now members of Christ's body the Church and are to be controlled by His Spirit; living lives of good works which bring glory to God.

But I know you know all that.

I have enjoyed this exchange of thoughts.

God bless you,

_________________
In His Grip

Rod


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:20 am
Posts: 639
Location: California
KittyR wrote:
TheSpoonMan wrote:
I've got to admit, they've got the most important stuff down- a community that buiolds up and encourages one another in teh Lord.

I would say that this is the greatest point of difference between you and me. I see something quite different when I look at the American church machine. A community that builds up and encourages one another in the Lord? I see that in the New Testament -- but no, I do not see that in today's church institutions.

Kitty

Maybe you should get out more. I see that a lot here.

_________________
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
William Butler Yeats


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 10
Location: Beautiful Central Virginia
Blackhawk wrote:
KittyR wrote:
TheSpoonMan wrote:
I've got to admit, they've got the most important stuff down- a community that buiolds up and encourages one another in teh Lord.

I would say that this is the greatest point of difference between you and me. I see something quite different when I look at the American church machine. A community that builds up and encourages one another in the Lord? I see that in the New Testament -- but no, I do not see that in today's church institutions.

Kitty

Maybe you should get out more. I see that a lot here.


I agree with Blackhawk; there's a great deal of "one anothering" in the body I fellowship with. And it's a wonderful blessing. :)

_________________
In His Grip

Rod


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:00 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 852
Location: Southern Ohio
A great series of pictures on the day, Adrian. Thanks for giving us another peek into the Greek culture.

:sunny2:


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:18 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Chicago, IL
rodfish wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
KittyR wrote:
TheSpoonMan wrote:
I've got to admit, they've got the most important stuff down- a community that buiolds up and encourages one another in teh Lord.

I would say that this is the greatest point of difference between you and me. I see something quite different when I look at the American church machine. A community that builds up and encourages one another in the Lord? I see that in the New Testament -- but no, I do not see that in today's church institutions.

Kitty

Maybe you should get out more. I see that a lot here.


I agree with Blackhawk; there's a great deal of "one anothering" in the body I fellowship with. And it's a wonderful blessing. :)


What they said. For me it's been nothing but.

Quote:
As far as exactly what I'm saying, I'm simply disagreeing with your statement that we receive Christ's power through the church.


Then through what else do we receive it? I'm using the Church simply in the sense of "God's people, gathered by Him". I don't think we receive the power of God through any one leader or group of leaders; but our gathering together affirms us in Christ, brings His presence to us, and maintains good teaching in us. The Church, becuase it is the spokesman of God, confirms God's acts: it is the pillar of the Truth, as Paul said. It is the Church, Paul says, who judges prophets. It's the Church who has confirmed in writing the divinity of Jesus (for instance), and who set in stone the canon of the Bible. It's in the Church that we receive baptism and communion, which confirm our salvation. No one is saved in a vacuum: everyone is saved because they hear the Gospel message from the Church and respond to it by becoming a member of the Church.

Quote:
Please don't get me wrong; I'm not against liturgy or ceremony; I think there are some beautiful practices in different churchs, but I don't think those things are required, nor do I think there are any clear examples in the NT of the Church practicing those things, which indicates to me that they're not essential to experience "the mystery richness and beauty of worship" that revles mentioned in his post.


I agree; they're not essential. My church doens't have them, and honestly I'm glad. But they do help a lot, and traditionally they've been a part of worship- and there's definately evidence in the NT and contemporary docs that it was around.

Quote:
True, there are references to the laying on of hands and annointing with oil in the NT, but no description of how that is to take place nor any guidelines as to its administration; whether with great pomp or very simply.


No, but it shows first that the Church enjoyed and encouraged symbolism, which is a big pillar of "high worship"; and second that they were not afraid of their Jewish roots (even if they avoided being Jewish to the point of heresy- chained to the Law and such).

Quote:
As to early texts mentioning some of the things you mentioned; like keeping a flame lit at Jesus tomb, chants and so forth; you may be right that they were carryovers from early believers previous practices; but it doesn't follow that they were pleasing to the Lord.


Absolutely true; but your assertion wasn't on the morality of ceremony- in fact you said you're not against it. You said that the Early Church did not practice it to a great extent; I'm only replying with evidence that they did.

Quote:
Quite the contrary; when the Jewish Christians tried to get the new Gentile believers to follow the Law and be circumsized, Paul responded very strongly in his letter to the Galatians that those things were not only worthless, but wrong.


But he did not say that circumcision is wrong: in fact, he was circumsized and circumcized others (or one other at least) himself. His problem was with forced circumcision and being forced to follow the Law, making it an issue for people entering the Chruch.

Quote:
It's also true that the very earliest believers (who were almost all Jewish) met in the Temple until they were thrown out, but there isn't any indication that I can see that the early Church (after the time the persecution began in Jerusalem) met in Synagogues.


Well, they were Jewish (and still considered themselves Jewish), so I think it's natural. I've seen evidence but I don't remember there. I think in some places in Acts, Paul will go to a synagogue to preach, and then find in the synagogue other believers, showing that they still went.

Quote:
The argument that a new believer would naturally incorporate some of his practices into his new found faith doesn't seem to hold true to me. Especially when or if the old faith he or she practiced involved worshiping idols, which would certainly have been the case in that day.


You have a point- for example, the Church discouraged the use of musical instruments, becuase they were associated with pagan worship. But I think it's unavoidable: people don't just turn around and change. God makes them new, but He doesn't make them any less human: He loves humanity, not some new machine. Also, the fact is, there are specific practices (ceremonies and such; even specific songs and styles of song in the liturgy) in the high churches that can be traced back to either paganism (showing that Christians incorporated their older practices) and Judaism (showing that they did so even before most Christians became Gentiles, so very early on).

Quote:
Paul seemed to be pretty strong on laying off the old self and puting on the new.


Amen! But a tentmaker he remained.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "our walk with God is about participation in the mysteries." The mysteries that Paul mentions aren't mysteries anymore since they have been revealed in the NT. Our walk with God is incredibly a new life; one where we have been redeemed from death by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. We are now members of Christ's body the Church and are to be controlled by His Spirit; living lives of good works which bring glory to God.


Amen to all that! But tell me- do you understand hwo God gave you that new life? Or how Jesus' blood saved you? Or how you an be called and yet choose? Or how the Trinity can be three and yet one? I don't think anyone understands this; it's revealed- glory be to God- but not understood. But it's beautiful not understanding, and forcing ourselves to be immersed in something bigger than ourselves.

_________________
"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." -G.K. Chesterton

Web Page: http://yeruvan.googlepages.com
Blog: http://chiasticsarcast.livejournal.com


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:07 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."(Matthew 16:6 NASB)

Shalom,
Ian

_________________
"Remember He is divine, and you are de branch" - Keith Green


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:55 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Colorado, USA
Blackhawk wrote:
KittyR wrote:
A community that builds up and encourages one another in the Lord? I see that in the New Testament -- but no, I do not see that in today's church institutions.

Maybe you should get out more. I see that a lot here.

I'm truly happy that you do, my friend! You are unusually fortunate in that regard. God bless you.

And really, a few years ago, I would have insisted the same. However, I've lately come to see that the American church system is way off. We are family/community in word and intent only. But we don't live life together. We merely attend the same meetings, albeit with love and goodwill, and call that fellowship. And we hang chains on one another by attempting to model the Kingdom of God after a business or corporation.

Does ministry happen? Oh yes, of course! Are lives healed and changed? Well certainly! And deep and lasting friendships form, to be sure. But that's because of the immeasurable and relentless grace of Christ, not because the American church system is till true to how the church was actually established in the New Testament.

Kitty

_________________
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 NIV


 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: Banishing hobgoblins and blessing the waters!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:04 am
Posts: 664
Location: Central Texas
KittyR wrote:
Don't dig for water under the outhouse!


Kitty .... you come up with some very profound statements from time to time ... this is one of your best. Very deep! :laughing:

_________________
We are not perfect .... just forgiven!


 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
cron
phpBB skin developed by: John Olson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group