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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:54 pm 
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Adrian wrote:
Fancypiper
It would be easy for me to record some examples but where would I post them? I am the most technically challenged out of the whole happy family here.


I use FileDen
Doesn't always work, but it's free anyway. ;)


The ornaments I mostly use: (I don't know the names of these)

==>Cutting a note in half with a quick higher or lower note.
==>Doing a quick note between any two notes. D, quick F#, E or G, quick B, F#
==>Cutting a note near the end with a higher note
==>Sliding up to a note from the note below, rather than using the note below as a grace note.
==>Jumping down a quick note, up two to a quick note, down to the final note. F#, quick E, quick G, E. I usually only lift the index finger to switch from the E to the G.
==>Playing quick ornaments while running down the scale to a much lower note. This is kinda random and cool.
==>Rather than a quick grace note to seperate two same notes, I sometimes jump to the note below, then the note above, then the note below, then back to the original note. If you have this: E, E, you can seperate it like this: E, quick F#, E, or what I said is: E, quick D, quick F#, quick D, E. I rather like this one!
==>Playing a grace note by lifting my index finger while playing a low note. E, quick C (Or whatever it is when you just lift that one index finger.), E.
==>Splitting a note into three notes, about the same length. Rather than just hitting A, play A B A. Usually I do this while I'm playing notes descending.
==>Quick F#, quick E, quick G, quick E, D.

That's all I can think of right now.

One quick example.
Rather than play G, F#, long E , I might go:
G, slide from E to F#, quick G, quick F#, long E
[/i]

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:57 pm 
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fancypiper wrote:
Adrian wrote:
Fancypiper
It would be easy for me to record some examples but where would I post them? I am the most technically challenged out of the whole happy family here.


See these instructions or these.


Thanks. I have posted clips before but am I allowed to put examples of ornamentation there?


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Kristos wrote:
Adrian wrote:
Fancypiper
It would be easy for me to record some examples but where would I post them? I am the most technically challenged out of the whole happy family here.


I use FileDen
Doesn't always work, but it's free anyway. ;)


The ornaments I mostly use: (I don't know the names of these)

==>Cutting a note in half with a quick higher or lower note.
==>Doing a quick note between any two notes. D, quick F#, E or G, quick B, F#
==>Cutting a note near the end with a higher note
==>Sliding up to a note from the note below, rather than using the note below as a grace note.
==>Jumping down a quick note, up two to a quick note, down to the final note. F#, quick E, quick G, E. I usually only lift the index finger to switch from the E to the G.
==>Playing quick ornaments while running down the scale to a much lower note. This is kinda random and cool.
==>Rather than a quick grace note to seperate two same notes, I sometimes jump to the note below, then the note above, then the note below, then back to the original note. If you have this: E, E, you can seperate it like this: E, quick F#, E, or what I said is: E, quick D, quick F#, quick D, E. I rather like this one!
==>Playing a grace note by lifting my index finger while playing a low note. E, quick C (Or whatever it is when you just lift that one index finger.), E.
==>Splitting a note into three notes, about the same length. Rather than just hitting A, play A B A. Usually I do this while I'm playing notes descending.
==>Quick F#, quick E, quick G, quick E, D.

That's all I can think of right now.

One quick example.
Rather than play G, F#, long E , I might go:
G, slide from E to F#, quick G, quick F#, long E
[/i]


Great stuff Kristos. I'll comment and give some names for these tomorrow. My eyes are not focusing right - time for sleep!


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:11 pm 
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Articulation

We all know that in Irish music there is not a lot of tonguing but there is some. In worship songs and hymns we will find more use for tonguing.

Articulation in ornamentation – normal single tonguing is not really an ornament but triple and quadruple tonguing certainly can be and so can alternatives to the regular ‘t’ or ‘ta’ form of starting a note.

1) Single tonguing – A recap in case you have forgotten. Articulation is the way we start a note and both tonguing and throating are common ways of doing this in Irish music. Tonguing is starting the note with the tongue in the position it would be to say a letter. The letter 't' is the most commonly taught.

The jazz whistler and flutist use the greatest variety of articulations but there are many to experiment with: 't' is the most common, 'd' gives a softer sound 'k' is different, and 'g' is a softer version. 'l' is interesting, 'y' is similar in sound to throating, 'a' IS throating! As you can see many letters can be used as a form of articulation. Experiment to your heart’s delight.

Now some playing techniques where alternative articulation is bread and butter.

2) Triple tonguing - or tongued triplets. They SOUND GREAT and can be a quick popping burble. They are used by many whistlers in jigs but I want to focus on their use as an ornament.

What is it? – In triple tonguing three notes are played very quickly together with each note being tongued. Because the three notes are played very quickly it is not possible for the tongue to articulate with the usual 't' 't' 't' so the tongue is given the easier job of something like 't' 'k' 't'. Say "ticketer" a few times quickly out loud. Now say it quickly silently and you will know what the tongue has to do.

Alternatives – ‘t’ ‘k’ ‘t’ is fairly standard but ‘d’ ‘g’ ‘d’ gives a softer sound.

Practice - Play a scale on your whistle saying a silent fast "ticketer" on each note.
So now you have learnt another easy ornament. One way to use it is to play a triplet on a single note in the same way that you might replace that note with a roll. Try using it sometime where you might put a short roll or a cran.

3) Quadruple tonguing – Self-explanatory by now. Four very quick notes can be articulated with ‘t’ ‘k’ ‘t’ ‘k’ or ‘d’ ‘g’ ‘d’ ‘g’ which is what is normally taught but it sounds to me too much like double tonguing two notes. I find ‘t’ ‘k’ ‘t’ ‘t’ to be smoother and more satisfactory. Try quadruple tonguing in scales for practice. It is another useful skill to add to your ‘musical vocabulary’.


I wanted to reply to Kristos’ post but it is 4am and we need to run to catch a train to visit a new Muslim village here.

More later.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:23 am 
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Kristos
I’m not an expert so bear that in mind when you read my comments.

Quote:
Cutting a note in half with a quick higher or lower note.


MORDENT - If you divide your note with the note below then that is a lower mordant and an upper mordant if you divide your note with the one above.

IMPORTANT you will find that the lower mordant sounds best when the tune is ascending and that the lower mordant is stronger when the tune is descending. It really does make a difference.

Quote:
Doing a quick note between any two notes. D, quick F#, E or G, quick B, F#
Cutting a note near the end with a higher note


CUTS – as you rightly described them.

Quote:
Sliding up to a note from the note below, rather than using the note below as a grace note.


SLIDES – Quite common in Irish music. Sliding down is less common but found in other music styles and one I use. Listen to Indian music (dots not feathers) for some great use of slides. Sliding into rolls works very well.

Quote:
Jumping down a quick note, up two to a quick note, down to the final note. F#, quick E, quick G, E. I usually only lift the index finger to switch from the E to the G.


INVERTED TURN – This is the opposite to the classical turn mentioned in an earlier post.

Quote:
Rather than a quick grace note to seperate two same notes, I sometimes jump to the note below, then the note above, then the note below, then back to the original note. If you have this: E, E, you can seperate it like this: E, quick F#, E, or what I said is: E, quick D, quick F#, quick D, E. I rather like this one!


There is no specific name for this but it is a turn of which there are many varients.


Quote:
Playing a grace note by lifting my index finger while playing a low note. E, quick C (Or whatever it is when you just lift that one index finger.), E.


That is a CUT

Quote:
Splitting a note into three notes, about the same length. Rather than just hitting A, play A B A. Usually I do this while I'm playing notes descending.


That is a TRIPLET

It looks like you have discovered many ornaments on your own. Well done!


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:03 pm 
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Adrian, your explanation of turns is very helpful. And thanks for covering mordents. Now when my cuts and taps are too weighty, I have an official word for them. "Oh, no, I didn't hold that cut too long, that's an upper mordent." :P

What's next, Bro?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:48 pm 
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GRACE NOTES

There are several kinds and variations as they can vary in number (single, double, triple), vary in duration, they can be accented or unaccented and they can vary as to whether they are played either before the beat or on the beat. They are also open to a wide variety of interpretation which is why there is so much written about them. Most of us are not classical musicians so we can play them how we like!

Cuts and taps in Irish music almost certainly evolved from grace notes and we are glad they did. However, it is very useful to have a few grace notes in your musical vocabulary as they are different to cuts and taps and can add something special to your tune. Listening to my CDs I have to say that they are quite common in whistle music.

APPOGIATURA - The longer grace note that can take half the note length is called the appogiatura. They are normally played on the beat and take their time from the note they are gracing. Probably most whistlers use them even if they don't know the name. If you want to grace a note e.g. 'G' you can grace it either with the note above AG or with the note below FG, though notes further away can be used as well. In the right place they can sound quite beautiful and so they often find their way into airs and slow tunes. In written music they are written like miniature notes.

DOUBLE GRACE NOTES - If you grace your note with two grace notes it is then a double note, again something that most of up probably use. For example: you can grace note 'G' by playing GAG or BAG if you are using upper notes or if you choose lower note you could play GFG or EFG. Triple grace notes or even more are possible as well :shock: .

ACCIACIATURA - The super fast grace note, or crush note, which is replaced in Irish music with cuts and taps is called the acciacatura. (So, if you are struggling with playing cuts you can play the much easier acciaciatura instead ;) ) They are played as quickly as possible so that they are more of an articulation than a note. Technically they are timeless. In music they can be written with a tiny note with a line through it, though there is no law about this. This form of grace note is normally played before the beat but that is not written in stone either.


It really is unimportant for us to know all the names of the ornaments as we only need to know what they sound like and how to play them. We do not need to waste our time trying to work out if what we played was a double grace note or a mordant etc.

I'm aware that many here know a lot more about all this than me so do add or correct me if you think I have gone astray or missed something.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:50 pm 
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I use mainly slides and cuts in my music. I started out using almost nothing but slides. That was the ornament that ariginally drew me to the whistle. As I've matured, I've begun to use more cuts mixed with slides. I also use something Toney Hinigan uses. The only thing I know to call it is a cut slide. It consists of a cut and a slide done at the same time. If I want to do a cut slide from D to E, I would raise my left fourth finger while doing a normal slide with my right fourth finger. I use these all the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:12 pm 
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whistlenut wrote:
I use mainly slides and cuts in my music. I started out using almost nothing but slides. That was the ornament that ariginally drew me to the whistle. As I've matured, I've begun to use more cuts mixed with slides. I also use something Toney Hinigan uses. The only thing I know to call it is a cut slide. It consists of a cut and a slide done at the same time. If I want to do a cut slide from D to E, I would raise my left fourth finger while doing a normal slide with my right fourth finger. I use these all the time.


The sound of a well performed slide is one of the most beautiful ornaments for my ear. Sliding into ornaments is a great way of using them as you have found. I think I first learnt this from the book by Larsen.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Adrian wrote:
Turns

1) This turn is made of five notes played very quickly. Main note, note above, main note, note below, main note.

A turn on G is GAGFG Play them very quickly. You will realise that they are similar to rolls but a million times easier to learn (like it takes 5 minutes to learn).



I know this is an old thread, but I've just seen it:

What's the difference between a turn as described above, and a roll?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Timing and variation are the main differiences.

A roll chops a dotted quater note note into three notes. The cut/pat notes aren't that important as they are just interuptions in the basic note.

When you first hear them, you it's tah-de-dah (you hear G G G) vs dum-dum-dum-dum-dum (you hear G A G F G).


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