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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:39 pm 
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shadoes wrote:
But back on topic I agree that if not Pilate then someone else. But still I find it odd that nobody every puts any responsibility on him.

Don't you find it significant that Pontius Pilate is mentioned by name in the Apostles' Creed?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Walden wrote:
shadoes wrote:
But back on topic I agree that if not Pilate then someone else. But still I find it odd that nobody every puts any responsibility on him.

Don't you find it significant that Pontius Pilate is mentioned by name in the Apostles' Creed?


Agrede. With both :P But I don't think it's rioght to take the blame off the Jews- they have the chief blame, because "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not". Doen't take the blame off Pilate, or off the Romans, tho- or off every single one of us, and let's never forget that!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:10 pm 
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Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

So, Yeshua had to die. Later, his death prophesied, Psalm 22, Daniel 9:25, Isaiah 53.

And the command to preach the Gospel, "to the Jew first and also to Gentile". But, this scripture seems to be largely ignored today concerning the attempt of the Church to reach Israel.
In fact, many have even gone astray into proclaiming that God has a separate plan of salvation for the Jews. Somehow, flakey theology creates excuses to have Anti-semetism.

Additional Scriptures:
* John 4.22: “You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews.”

* Rom 3.1-2: “(1) Therefore what advantage does the Jew have, or what is the value of circumcision? (2) Actually, there are many advantages. First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.”

* Rom 9–11: too lengthy to quote, but note that these three chapters address the future of the Jews and Paul’s longing to see his fellow countrymen saved.

* Rom 9.1-5: “(1) I am telling the truth in Christ (I am not lying!), for my conscience assures me in the Holy Spirit— (2) I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. (3) For I could wish that I myself were accursed—cut off from Christ—for the sake of my people, my fellow countrymen, (4) who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. (5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.”

* 1 Cor 9.20: “To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law.”

* 1 Cor 10.32: “Do not give offense to Jews or Greeks or to the church of God…”

Then there are the nations that continue hatred and offenses against Israel:

Zechariah 1:14
So the angel who spoke with me said to me, "Proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: "I am zealous for Jerusalem And for Zion with great zeal. I am exceedingly angry with the nations at ease, For I was a little angry, And they help--but with evil intent"

The nations today continue to conspire against Israel, they conspire against the LORD. God was angry with Israel for the sins that were committed, the nations took it a step too far.

In these days, a trickle of Jewish people are accepting Messiah, in the last 30 years there have been more Jewish people coming to Yeshua that the only time you can compare that to is the first century. But, a day yet to come will be when this scripture is fulfilled.
Zechariah 12:10 ...;then they will look upon me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

This can also be compared to the life of Joseph, who is a 'type' that represents the Messiah. In Joseph's later days, he was rejoined to his brothers after being one who save many people of the ancient world from famine.

I think the main reason of Anti-semetism in church background is lack of understanding of the blood of Messiah.


BTW - There is an Arab family that needs prayer, the clipping below from Tass of "Hope for Ishmael" will explain:

Quote:
Dear Friends,

We are saddened to let you know that a good friend, Rami Ayyad, and one of our church members where we attend church in Gaza, the Gaza Baptist church, has been kidnapped and murdered in Gaza. Rami worked as the receptionist for the Bible Society in Gaza City.



Tass relayed the story to me over the phone early this morning as follows (if there are some holes in the story, I apologize, we will get further details for you):



Rami was kidnapped as he was apparently closing the Bible Society yesterday afternoon at about 4:00pm. He was headed to a meeting with our pastor, Pastor Hanna, and he never showed up.



Earlier in the day, he had called Pastor Hanna to tell him that a car with several guys, who looked like civilians was driving around the building and watching him as he was sitting at the front desk in the office where he normally is. He has been the receptionist at the Bible Society for some time. When he did not show up to his meeting with Pastor, the pastor called his cell phone and did not get an answer. After several hours at about 7:00pm, pastor's call was answered. However, he could tell he was on speaker phone. Rami said he was with some people and would be there soon. When the pastor asked him if he was with the people he spoke of earlier, Rami said yes.



Later, again they could not get hold of him on the phone and at about 1:00am in the morning some other man answered the phone. This time the man said he was a neighbor of Rami's. He told the pastor that he was awakened by a commotion outside and that he heard two gunshots. When he looked outside he saw Rami's body lying on the street. The body had many knife stabbings, his head was cracked open (as if it had been hit with a sharp object) and he was shot in the head and in the arm.



Please pray for Rami's family. Rami was 29 years old, married with two small girls, one two year old a 10 month old and one baby on the way.



Please also pray for all of the Christians in the Gaza Strip as they are facing some dark times. Pray for wisdom and strength and that fear will not overtake them as they live and witness to the community around them. Pray this incident will be a witness to all the Muslims who know them. Pray that they will not react negatively to the MBB’s (Muslim Background Believers) in Gaza who are already being persecuted.



Pray that God will use Rami’s life for His glory. Rami was a friendly young man who was an asset to the Bible society and a great example of a brave Believer in Jesus Christ. We pray strength and protection for his young family.

in His steps,

Tass and Karen


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:21 pm 
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I'd like to say something here, so we don't go down a road we don't need to take. The New Testament lays some of the responsibility on some Jews, but not all. Jesus' first disciples were Jews. The Jews mentioned most in the N.T. as opposing Jesus were Pharisees and Sadducees, and not all of these were complicit. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of Jews in the Holy Land were neither of these. Additionally, Hollywood's images of the number of people in front of Pilate yelling for Christ's execution just doesn't fit the set up of the city of the time, the actual building size, etc. It's often depicted as large numbers, if not a whole city, but this simply is hard to reconcile with all this. Similarly, many also make it look like all those who came out to shout Hosanna as he enters the city on the donkey, were the same who turn on him and cry for his crucifixion. I don't see that this is a connection made in the Bible.

My point here is the trouble with laying more blame on the Jews (and doing this collectively) than is warranted or needful. And why, given the need for Christ's death, and given our own sinfulness, should we be concerned about laying blame on others at all? (I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't look for the historical, practical forces behind this, but there wouldn't be a need for us to be indignant or vengeful. I'm also not saying this is what anyone on this thread is doing -- not at all. Here I'm just countering a trend in thought and attitude that has been common historically and has brought unneeded animosity.)

The passage of coming to his own and not being received by them is an important one. I don't think it ought to be interpreted, though, as casting blame or guilt on a whole people (and their contemporary descendants) as some Christians have done historically. Christ came to his own. Some received him. Some didn't. I believe the point for us to take from this is that Christ comes to us in his way. Some will receive him, some won't. What will you and I do?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm 
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Thanks, Keith.

And.......praying for Rami's family.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:42 am 
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Well said, Keith.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:20 pm 
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That was well said.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:11 pm 
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daniel_bingamon wrote:
BTW - There is an Arab family that needs prayer, the clipping below from Tass of "Hope for Ishmael" will explain:

Quote:
Dear Friends,

We are saddened to let you know that a good friend, Rami Ayyad, and one of our church members where we attend church in Gaza, the Gaza Baptist church, has been kidnapped and murdered in Gaza. Rami worked as the receptionist for the Bible Society in Gaza City.



Tass relayed the story to me over the phone early this morning as follows (if there are some holes in the story, I apologize, we will get further details for you):



Rami was kidnapped as he was apparently closing the Bible Society yesterday afternoon at about 4:00pm. He was headed to a meeting with our pastor, Pastor Hanna, and he never showed up.



Earlier in the day, he had called Pastor Hanna to tell him that a car with several guys, who looked like civilians was driving around the building and watching him as he was sitting at the front desk in the office where he normally is. He has been the receptionist at the Bible Society for some time. When he did not show up to his meeting with Pastor, the pastor called his cell phone and did not get an answer. After several hours at about 7:00pm, pastor's call was answered. However, he could tell he was on speaker phone. Rami said he was with some people and would be there soon. When the pastor asked him if he was with the people he spoke of earlier, Rami said yes.



Later, again they could not get hold of him on the phone and at about 1:00am in the morning some other man answered the phone. This time the man said he was a neighbor of Rami's. He told the pastor that he was awakened by a commotion outside and that he heard two gunshots. When he looked outside he saw Rami's body lying on the street. The body had many knife stabbings, his head was cracked open (as if it had been hit with a sharp object) and he was shot in the head and in the arm.



Please pray for Rami's family. Rami was 29 years old, married with two small girls, one two year old a 10 month old and one baby on the way.



Please also pray for all of the Christians in the Gaza Strip as they are facing some dark times. Pray for wisdom and strength and that fear will not overtake them as they live and witness to the community around them. Pray this incident will be a witness to all the Muslims who know them. Pray that they will not react negatively to the MBB’s (Muslim Background Believers) in Gaza who are already being persecuted.



Pray that God will use Rami’s life for His glory. Rami was a friendly young man who was an asset to the Bible society and a great example of a brave Believer in Jesus Christ. We pray strength and protection for his young family.

in His steps,

Tass and Karen
It's taking me quite a while to catch up with emails and posts here, and I only just now saw this, Daniel. This is heartbreaking, to say the very least. The family is in my prayers.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:53 pm 
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I just saw it as well Daniel ... it is a very sad thing ... in my prayers.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:18 am 
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After reading about this murder, I went to the website of the org for which I volunteer. There's an article about it, as well as two video clips.

http://www.opendoorsusa.org/content/view/273/21/

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